 |
|
13th Plenary ISO/TC 107 - Meeting Notes
by Debbie Angerman
Technical Information Manager, Compressed Gas Association
Mr. Ieiri, the host of the meeting from Japan, welcomed
participants.
Randy Dey, Chairman of ISO TC 197 welcomed participants and
thanked the hosts for the wonderful dinner the night before.
He asked participants to introduce themselves.
As Livio Gambone had to leave early, he was asked to give reports
for WG 5 & 6 first.
WG 5 Report from DIS 17268, report by Convener Livio Gambone
See WG5 report (57Kb PDF). Following the
report, Bob Mauro, head of the US delegation, mentioned that
after J2600 was published, industry found there were some technical
issues on wear. SAE is doing tests in 3rd quarter of this year
to address and possibly modify the standard. He asked if it
is possible to incorporate technical comments from these studies
before DIS vote. Mr. Mauro raised the issue that a flaw in the
implementation of the fast-track procedure resulted in the work
not getting approval from the U.S. TAG to have agreement on
SAE J2600, which has prompted technical comments and concern
that technical issues are addressed. It was noted that SAE was
unaware of technical issues at time of publishing. The convenor
stated if the DIS passes, the plan is to proceed with an FDIS.
WG5 will be able to work on technical issues for revision of
a published standard. The convenor will call a meeting within
6 weeks to discuss comments from DIS vote. Next target dates
will be determined after the vote closes.
WG-6—on behalf of Craig Webster.
This is a joint work item with TC 58/SC 3, TC 22 and TC 197.
After CD comments were addressed there was an effort to harmonize
with WP 29 except stainless steel welding processes, which were
not in the initial scope. Results of recent 5-part DIS vote--Approval,
parts 2, 3, 4. Disapproval, parts 1, 5. Following circulation,
a joint meeting for all 3 committee's participants will be held
this fall that may be convenient to all—probably early
October for 3-day meeting. Recirculation of a second DIS is
the goal.
N293—Report of Chairman: Randy Dey made a brief presentation
on the activities and priorities of IST TC 197 since the last
meeting. He highlighted the following activities:
* Increase awareness of TC 197—ISO Focus
* Launching hydrogen industry survey—purpose to get as
much input on the ISO TC 197 Business Plan as possible.
* Request Member Body to respond to survey
* WP29—made a decision to reference international standards.
Karen Hall asked for a copy of the document(s) relating to this
to be included with the official minutes.
* Harmonized UN ECE and Fuel tanks have been harmonized as much
as possible.
* GRPE will work closely with TC 197, and TC 197 was mentioned
in GRPE Road Map.
* WP29 recognized value in working with International bodies.
* Technical comment to Global Technical Regulations ideally
would be a reference to international standards. The UN is recognizing
the value of referencing applicable international standards.
* Work to strengthen liaison relationships—meeting Jan.
14, 2004 with TC 58/SC 3, TC 22.
Report of Secretariat: N282—Sylvie Gingras showed slides
of the high-level overview of committee activities and organization,
as follows: 15 Primary (P – voting) members, 14 Observer
(O) members.
She then reviewed procedures for developing ISO TC 197 documents.
She stated there are three standards development tracks. The
normal track takes approximately 36 months. An accelerated track
is possible, which takes about 24 months (using FAST TRACK procedure).
An extended timeframe is possible, when justified, up to 48
months.
She explained that New Work Items for International Standards
need to have a development track assigned. This does not apply
to Technical specifications (TS), Publicly Available Specifications
(PAS), or Technical Reports (TR).
* Automatic cancellation—not moving after 2 years and not
published in 5 years are cancelled. Need to do NWIP again if
cancelled.
* PAS—consensus of WG and majority of P members—3
years reconfirm—max is 6 yrs.
* TS—intermediate—3 yrs—max 6 yrs. (Advantage
at earlier stage. Can have different technical solutions.) PAS
and TS cannot conflict with IS.
* TR—data—only informative—different than IS.
No requirements.
* Amendments have same steps as IS with targets. No limit for
revision of IS. Only 2 amendments or corrigenda—and then
a new edition would be published.
* Question on changing form of document. PAS and TS can be moved
to IS—max 6 years. Changing type of document will be confirmed
by Secretariat.
WG1—DIS 13985.3 voting concluded March 15, 2004.
Although there were enough votes for approval, the accompanying
comments were significant. The convenor will confirm a meeting
on or about August 3, 2004 [after talking with Dr. Hay, this
meeting is likely in September] in Montreal. The Secretariat
will break down issues by category and give recommendations.
Background information will be distributed. A new draft will
be circulated for voting. U.S. thanked Secretariat for decision
to address comments and consider new draft considering that
the DIS did gain enough votes for approval. It was significant,
however, that Japan and U.S. disapproved. Karen Hall requested
that Secretary send her a draft from harmonized—redline
strikeout version from WG. She would like to see the technical
changes from the harmonization process with EIHP from the original
CD. The Secretary reported that as noted in the TC 220 update,
TC 220 references are moving forward. Bob Mauro requested to
know changes from CD to DIS on TC 220 reference documents. Projected
next steps— meeting to discuss DIS comments. Work completed
Oct 2004. The document should be received by the editing committee
by December 2004. The FDIS is scheduled to be circulated in
January 2005.
WI 22734--WG-8 hydrogen Generators using Water Electrolysis.
Randy Dey is the convener, and gave a brief report. The working
group met February 23-24 to discuss comments including harmonization
with WG-9. The revised CD is expected to be circulated. 3 Task
Groups are working on issues for residential applications. The
first CD is expected in June 2005.
WG-9—CD 16110 circulated March 3 for comments.
Comments have been received. Mario Sandoval, the convenor, gave
a report. He indicated the safety part includes all performance
issues when standard was proposed. IEC/TC 105 is addressing
conformity assessment. They believe they have addressed safety.
The performance standard will provide detailed standards for
efficiency. It will include information not relative to the
certification of a standard. A number of WG members want to
see part 2 added for performance. This effort is being coordinated
with IEC/TC 105. Mr. Sandoval requested TC 197 approve a proposal
of WG9 to split the work into two parts. The first part will
proceed as DIS by Oct. 2004. June 2005—as CD for Part 2.
WG9 harmonized with IEC TC 105 WG3. The group is happy with
the level of cooperation.
The IEC/TC 105 installation standard is very similar to WG9
aspects—fuel piping, delivery, distances. TC 105 has asked
to expand the scope to include installation of generators and
has proposed to work jointly with ISO/TC 197 WG9. Fuel cell
power systems and installation of hydrogen generators using
fuel processing technology. Led by IEC TC 105 and include WG9
members as well as TC 105. WG9 convenership may change due to
Mr. Sandoval’s company status change. The Netherlands is
considering the options for change.
Related activities—working to harmonize codes and standards
with WG9. UL STP 2264 (CSA America—FC5 and UL)—agreement
not to develop a separate standard, but to work on ISO documents.
In the U.S., three separate working groups have been formed,
1 to align ISO work with U.S. codes and standards, two to harmonize
WG8 and WG9. A separate activity is also underway to attempt
to harmonize WG9 and International Code Council (ICC) installation
documents. Some hydrogen generators may include reformate, which
is not currently in the U.S. codes. Mr. Sandoval consulted with
ICC. He has also been working on EU adoption of the WG9 document.
The proposal requires letters of support from CEN member bodies.
Then will be circulated to European members with a goal of using
the same document as an ISO document. Japan is working to align
with codes and standards and industrial requirements.
The TC discussed the question of whether to have 2-part standard.
The TC agreed to a 2-part standard, and agreed to a revised
title for Part 2—Procedures to determine efficiency.
Dates: DIS in October for Part 1. Part 2 for CD as June 2005.
The members of the TC expressed thanks for Mr. Sandoval’s
excellent work and coordination on WG9, and wished him the best.
Mr. Sandoval also raised an issue of a proposed joint installation
standard with IEC TC 105 WG5, with joint membership. A key point
is to expand scope of the IEC TC 105 standard to include Hydrogen
generator systems. They hope to include WG8 as well. To do this,
Mr. Sandoval indicated a need for an official request from WG9
(and WG8, if they wish to be included) for a joint working group.
They will advise on the next steps. It is understood that approval
will be required from both bodies.
Metal hydrides--WD 16111, WG10
Ned Stetson is the convenor, but was not present. Bob Mauro
gave report and has kept fairly close to WG work. The NWIP was
approved Dec 2002, 5 face-to-face meetings, and 4 teleconference
meetings have been held. A meeting was held in Sept. in Toronto—2-3
days with 9 attendees. The target was April 2004 but there has
been not enough progress on the design requalification. The
next target for CD is Oct. 1, 2004. The group has been considering
incorporation of a Japanese protocol sent to the UN TDG of experts.
A decision has been made not to yet include this, but to consider
later when the work is further along. They anticipate coordinating
through DOT to UN.
WG11, Service stations—
Randy Dey is the convenor. WG 11 met Feb. 2004, agreed on title,
scope and contents. Many reference documents were brought forward.
Task Groups were formed to look at various sections. Gaseous
hydrogen and hydrogen blends—Fuelling stations is the new
title as changed by WG11. The group wanted to be sure fuelling
stations were included—not just service stations.
The activity has been changed to develop a Technical Specification—target
date June 2005.
A discussion ensued regarding the data needed to complete this
work, as much of the data is not yet available. There are serious
open questions on setback distances. There was also a concern
of whether to include retrofitting not just green field service
stations. The WG plans to bring consensus to this issue.
Amendment of 14687, Report of WG 12 – Hydrogen Purity
The WG met this week in Tokyo for 2 days. They expressed a need
for input from other countries including the European countries.
There are a number of technical challenges and the WG needs
better participation especially from Europe. WG is considering
whether it is possible to meet in Europe for next meeting to
try to get more European participation. OEMs need to be aware
of what they want the standard to be for hydrogen for fuel cell
vehicles. What can the fuel cell tolerate? High purity will
cost money in purification and certification. Mario Sandoval
recommends WG12 contact CEN TC 19, Petroleum products—monitoring
WG for fuels for fuel cells. Karen Hall mentioned the possibility
of meeting in Hamburg in mid September in conjunction with H2
expo. She also extended an open invitation to meet in the NHA
office in the UK. Bob Mauro described the US concerns on data
1) have not done long-term tests on contaminants 2) range of
contaminants is very narrow 3) US is in process of putting together
a 5-yr study plan on those contaminants (Jim Ohi, NREL is the
contact person). Need to develop tests with level of sensitivity
needed for industrial quantities of fuel. U.S. proposes to move
forward in something other than IS. List of contaminants—put
together with GM, API, etc. Mr. Takagi stated that Japan prefers
to have something available in the short-term.
Decision to let Working group develop recommendations. The WG
does not know what it will recommend, but expect to discuss
it at the next meeting this fall –place and date to be
determined—probably Europe.
After lunch the Secretariat expressed encouragement for NWIPs,
and led a discussion of the process.
Ms. Gingras also discussed the Permanent editing committee,
which is responsible for updates and editing DIS and FDIS for
circulation—in conformance with Dir Part 2, translation.
The TC confirmed the following persons to remain on the Permanent
Editing Committee: Hall, Maupin, Gingras
Liaisons:
TC 11 WG10 has continued with TS 16528 as DIS. New approach
is that boiler and pressure codes as complying with IS if they
fulfill requirements and then are listed as normative references.
* Condition for inclusion of standard as normative standard—wide
acceptance, publicly available, standards body agrees, Standards
body agrees to advise TC 11 of any change to the reference.
* Proposal to circulate this DIS to TC 197 members for comments.
Agreed.
* Liaisons reviewed: TC 22—no report. Common items 13985,
15869, 17268.
* TC 22:TC 197 N292, ISO/TC 22 document N 2504, Fuel cell road
vehicles — Safety specifications — Part 2: Protection
against hydrogen hazards for vehicles fuelled with compressed
hydrogen.
* SAE 2578, SAE 2579 cover subject. Secretariat will look at
genesis of this NWIP.
* SC 3 asks for joint WG to address 15869—not just chairman
and convener
* TC 220—3 awaiting DIS voting--20421-1, 21011, IEC/TC
105
* Work Program reviewed.
* 62282-1 Terminology etc.
* Fuel cell system for APUs. Question of whether this item belongs
here (ISO TC 197) or should go to TC 22/SC 21. The focus on
fuel cell vehicle standards is with TC 22/SC21. Discussion on
starting IEC activity on small specialty vehicles such as wheel
chairs, bicycles, golf carts, which would be in IEC TC 105.
Micro fuel cell power systems.
* Concern on CEN/CENELC activity on fuel cell gas heating appliances
on residential (overlapping with WG3 of IEC TC 105). ISO TC
105 has requested CENELEC to cooperate with WG3 instead of having
a separate activity. TC 197 was asked to concur and contact
CEN in favor of WG3. Randy Dey will require more support from
ISO CS and IEC HQ. (Will circulate IEC TC 105 minutes to members.)
The European Hydrogen Association (EHA) was recently approved
as a Category A liaison. Bob Mauro requested discussion of liaisons
to be deferred until after the discussion of the business plan,
as the decisions and discussion there may lead to additional
needs for liaisons.
Cooperation with other organizations:
UN--WP 29 - Two draft UNECE regulations on onboard storage systems
are being developed. The regulations at the UN are harmonized
with ISO at this point. GRPE has formed an informal group—WG
in charge of hydrogen fuel cells—currently developing a
road map. (Informal doc. No. GRPE-48-17-Rev.1). ISO TC 197 is
recognized. Decision of WP29 on how to proceed is expected in
Nov. 2004. One path—directly to GTR and stop work of ECE's
or--Other path and use ECE work and publish and parallel work
on GTRs. Decision is in hands of WP 29. Once decision is made,
it will be more clear on how GTRs are developed.
A decision was made by WP 29 to rely more broadly on international
standards by simply quoting the references and publication dates
of standards rather than reintroducing them in extenso. UNECE
website, WP 29 minutes, March 2003. Question of whether less
than published standard may be referenced (DIS or FDIS –will
be investigated by Secretariat.)
Harmonization between ISO and WP29—not exactly the same—not
completely. Harmonized insofar as what is in UN draft is also
in the ISO.
Other business - no other business.
Business plan
ISO TC 197 has developed a website survey. The Chairman called
attention to Industry survey on ISO website trying to get input
from industry on priorities for international standardization.
Participation of national committee is requested by all P members.
Bob Mauro mentioned that GRPE already have a list of priorities
regardless of survey which would seem to naturally select priorities.
In order for us to do this in a rapid, effective manner, we
require other technical committees where they have expertise.
If industry is going forward, we need to go to other TCs and
provide hydrogen requirements.
The Secretariat requested P members to go to industry and request
that they fill out survey and send in. Mr. Dey is not aware
of official document listing priorities. The Secretariat will
compile results of survey by end of year as a direct stakeholder
input.
From Chairman:
1) Proposing ad hoc group to list TC 197 work priorities (informal
group—required to be limited in scope and short duration)
to report next plenary meeting. Within 2 months—nominate
experts (brief statement of purpose sent by Sec), will call
a meeting (need to meet first time, then perhaps electronic).
P members to participate with Randy Dey and show interest. There
is a need to getting hydrogen component users and bring experts
to group.
Japan, Norway, Italy, France, Canada, US agreed to participate.
The US indicated it could appoint experts of users of hydrogen
components as well.
2) Proposed ad hoc group to expand TC 197 Membership--
The Chairman has been in touch with China, UK, and Spain. The
Chairman requests a focused effort in growing membership. The
ad hoc group would be asked to build a strategy for new members,
and provide interim reports every 6 months. Final results at
next plenary. The Chairman asked if the U.S. would be willing
to lead. Bob Mauro indicated the U.S. has interest, but needs
to look at resources and time. Contacts with NHA are in place.
Need time with resources in place. Mario Sandoval suggested
including EHA as well. Mr. Cola indicated the roles of associations
should be distinct from TC and WG work. The leadership should
be inside official bodies. The US needs to consult with the
U.S. TAG and have support of NHA before committing to this.
Mr. Mauro is requested to respond within 2 months. Mr. Mauro
suggested the Chairman circulate a memo on why we are doing
this and see the response to see if members want it. Mr. Mauro
suggested the importance of 5 countries with geographical diversity
and other terms of leadership needed to be determined. Despite
efforts to get participation from Asian and European countries—there
was no response.
Two other members—Italy (possibly), Norway (limited scope)
were identified. They both stated they would confirm this decision
and that it was tentative.
The Business Plan includes requirements of inclusion in membership.
The Secretariat will put them in a draft letter to group.
Business Plan:
The Secretariat sent N281 on April 28. The deadline for input
was June 14. Some comments were received. Some countries have
requested additional time. The extend deadline for member input
is September 15. Some comments were received but most were general
in nature. Input needed from P members:
* Recent or expected technological changes and major innovations
related to the industry sector, products or materials
* Total international and national trade in the sector (in US$)
over the last 3 years
* Estimated number of companies (national and worldwide operating
in the sector in the past 3 years.
* Estimated employment (national and worldwide) in hydrogen
* Expected number of gaseous and liquid hydrogen filling stations
to be constructed by 2010
* Expected number of hydrogen fuelled cars and buses by 2010.
* Expected number of commercial and residential installations
where hydrogen is used as an energy carrier and fuel by 2010.
* Statistics provided in section 2.2 of the business plan.
Bob Mauro indicated that SRI has a report where this information
can be found worldwide, which may answer about half of this
information. Mr. Cola indicated surprise that names of companies
with percentages of market shares was listed in the draft and
suggested these should be removed. The Chair agreed. We are
really looking for trends rather than specific numbers. The
Secretariat proposed timetable for phases of work for Business
Plan:
* September 30 Provide TMB with status report instead of revised
business plan.
* 15 Nov—Circulation of comments and new draft (version
no. 7)
* Dec. 15—Circulation of the revision with new compilation
of comments.
* Feb 15—Version 9—Final to submit to TMB.
Second phase of business plan—Target 2005 plenary meeting
will incorporate industry response from survey. The third phase
will include ad hoc committee information on priorities –
Target Sept. 2006.
Suggested additional liaisons in light of hydrogen interface
with other areas of industry:
TC 153, Valves; TC 118, Compressors, pneumatic tools and machines
(confirm whether this is compressors other than air); IEC/TC
31 L, apparatus for flammable gas detection; Recommendation
to invite liaison relationship--agreed
Next Item: Subsequent meetings:
Plenary for 2005
Invitation—The US offered to host in 2005 the plenary meeting
in conjunction with the Fuel Cell Seminar, with the caveat that
if it interfered with other offers, we would withdraw. The Fuel
Cell Seminar was originally set for late October and early Nov.
Now it is in Palm Springs, CA during week of Nov. 14 with preference
of dates of Nov 17-18 for the ISO TC 197 Plenary in 2005. Received
an offer from Spain as well. Regrets were expressed from R.
Mauro of conflict with EHA meeting. The US will try to accommodate
EHA and will look into possibility of week before or after with
Robert Wichert of the US Fuel Cell Council.
Plenary for 2006
WHEC 16 in Lyon, France. French organizing committee of WHEC
invites TC 197 plenary to meet (June 13-16)
Plenary for 2007
Korea tentatively invites for 2007. ISO TC 197 looks forward
to receiving an official invitation.
Plenary 2008
Possibly in conjunction with WHEC 17 in Brisbane Australia.
Adjourn:
The Chairman expressed thanks to all and especially Japanese
hosts. The 2004 Plenary meeting of ISO TC 197 adjourned at 4:40pm.
|
